Are you teaching your kids to follow Jesus—or to just follow the rules?
In this episode, Juli sits down with Matt & Laurie Krieg to talk about how to give our kids a gospel-centered worldview. From early conversations about sexuality and gender to equipping them for a sexually broken world, you’ll get practical, faith-filled guidance to help you raise resilient, Christ-focused kids.
Prefer to listen? Listen to the full episode here.
Juli (00:00.482)
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Now let’s head to the coffee shop for today’s conversation.
Laurie
I missed the vertical piece when it came to talking about human sexuality. I heard the horizontal relational. I interpreted it as legalistic. You do good, you get good, you are good. As opposed to God has this beautiful purpose in the world to restore and redeem everyone to Him. And I get to be a part of that.
Juli
Well, hey friend, welcome to Java with Juli. I am your host, Juli Slattery. And this podcast is a production of Authentic Intimacy, which is a ministry dedicated to helping you make sense of God and sexuality. So let me ask you a question. What do you remember hearing from your parents about sexuality? Maybe not too much, maybe an awkward conversation, but boy, the conversation needs to change. There’s just so much going on.
Juli (01:56.652)
And to help us unpack how we talk to our kids about sexuality, are Matt and Laurie Kreig. Now Laurie has written a new book called Raising Wise Kids in a Sexually Broken World and it is available for pre-order. And the reason I love this resource is Laurie combines a biblical worldview, which I think is just so essential with real life. How do we unpack this with our kids? How do we talk about everything from
We have a neighbor who’s LGBT to why can’t I go to this sleepover to preparing them for the conversation about pornography. She just has done a great job putting this resource together. Laurie is also hosting a video series that comes out this month. It’s called Christian Sexuality Raising Kids. It features the voices of a lot of experts you probably know, including John Mark Comer, Jackie Hill Perry, Dan Allender, and so many others. So we’re going to link to her new book, and the video series in our show notes. A little bit more about Laurie, she is the director of parent programs and development at the Center for Faith, Sexuality and Gender. Her husband, Matt, is a licensed mental health therapist and they live in Western Michigan with their three kids. Let’s head to the coffee shop for my conversation with Matt and Laurie Kreig.
Juli (03:17.112)
Laurie and Matt, I am so excited to have you guys back on Java with Juli. I’m just blessed every time I talk to you two. You have such a passion for the Lord and particularly around this topic of sexuality. And this time around, we’re gonna be talking about sexuality and parenting. So you’re in the thick of it, right? How old are your kids?
Laurie
We are. They are 10, 9, and 6. And so we are in the middle of laying the good foundation.
Juli
Yeah, and you’re doing that not just for yourselves, but you’ve been doing a lot of work and through the Center for Faith, Sexuality and Gender with a parenting curriculum we’re gonna talk about, as well as a book that you all have coming out in January, which let me just say, like this book is right now my go-to recommendation for anything parenting and sexuality. So.
Yeah, you know, there’s some great resources out there. But this one, you guys just did such an amazing job of making it theologically robust, but very practical for parents. So job well done. I can’t wait to get this resource into the hands of many parents. And remind me of what it’s called because I don’t have it in front of me.
Laurie
It’s Raising Wise Kids in a Sexually Broken World. So that is the book that comes out in January. And the film Discipleship Project that really relates to it that comes out in September of 25 is Christian Sexuality Raising Kids. So raising kids is everywhere.
Juli (04:53.838)
Okay, super. So I would love for you just to share a little bit about both of you, your personal backgrounds, because I know your own journeys towards sexual homeless and freedom play an important part in your passion for this. And also I think the depth of perspective that you bring to the conversation. So maybe Laurie, if you want to start and then Matt, you can chime in.
Laurie
Yeah, so right after college, I had been secretly dating a girl at my Christian university. And then I broke up with her many times. And then Matt came along and I was dating him for a bit. And then I sensed the Lord just saying, no, like just stop. I thought it was done forever. But it was really wait. And that waiting time was a time where I really dove deep into the love of Jesus and with the help of a therapist who helped me to understand these same sex desires were not the worst sin, but they were pointing toward a deeper need underneath my sinful default to go toward women. And the deeper need was to be seen and known and loved and we know the right answer, but all of us have defaults to go to the wrong places. We all go to empty cisterns. And so I learned through this therapeutic listening prayer, Jesus encountering practice with this woman named Carolyn. I write about it in our first marriage book called An Impossible Marriage. I really learned the love of Jesus and the love of Jesus has an explosive power, to quote the Scottish minister, Thomas Chalmers, an expulsive power to remove all other loves. When you know the love of Jesus, the things of this world are not things to consume. They can be used to just glorify God. And so when I encountered the love of God, he didn’t turn me from gay to straight, but it empowered and empowers me now to die to all the empty cisterns, all the empty idols that I run toward instead of Jesus.
Laurie (07:14.612)
So after college, I was really wrestling in that time. And I said, God, if you get me through this, will you help me to be a voice of hope for even one other person? And so as I was doing my soul work and learning the love of Jesus, that was a seed planted into ministry work I began seven years later, and then have been doing 11 years since then. So that was many years ago that I planted that seed, the Lord planted that seed of prayer. And now I’ve been helping people on a personal level, but also through writing books and speaking, really encounter the love of Jesus that helps to orient our hearts toward Him.
Juli
Yeah, beautiful. Yeah.
Matt
Yeah, my story is very similar in that it like my default sinfulness is regarding sexuality and pornography use and it wasn’t until six years into our marriage that I was able to come clean with my own addiction and really get to know the love of God for the first time in my life even though I had been through seminary and done all the Christian college stuff. And since that time that has become a primary focus of my counseling practice, is to help other people who are, wrestling with their own issues with sexuality or sexual brokenness, whether it’s in singleness and marriage and just helping people find that expulsive love of Christ and really define their needs being met through him and through healthy relationship with those around them. And I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had people come into my office because, they’re stereotypically their son was caught using pornography.
Matt (09:02.732)
And then we start to talk about all the underlying emotional stuff. And sometimes it’s like a deer in headlights, because I’ll have them try and talk to their parents as well. And they’re like looking at me like, are we allowed to talk about this? Are we allowed to actually discuss these things? Like, this seems like such a faux pas. And it really isn’t. And if we as parents can be that anchoring point for our kids to learn about what God created sex to be, that can really change some of the conversations that hopefully we’ll be having in the future.
Juli
Yeah, thank you for sharing that because it gives context for, again, the conversation that we’re going to have. At some level, you two represent a Christian parents’ greatest fear. Okay, you also represent the greatest hope. So we’ll get to the hope piece, but you’re both raised in Christian homes, right? And you go to Christian colleges and, Laurie I know from your story that you also have sexual trauma in your past, an incident of abuse. You struggled with same sex attraction and experimenting with that. And then Matt, you know, a struggle with pornography. These are the things that every Christian parent is fearing. Like what if my kid gets addicted to porn? What if my kid encounters sexual abuse? What if my kid is confused about sexual orientation, and I’m raising them in a Christian home, I’m teaching them about the things? So I say that to set the table, like you have walked through what you probably fear for your own kids, but you also represent the hope of, like you both said, through those difficulties encountering, I’m gonna use your words, the explosive love of Jesus that changed everything for you.
Juli (11:02.464)
Yeah. So I don’t know what your thoughts are on that and being every Christian parent’s fear.
Laurie
Juli, I’ll talk with my friends. I’m like, you guys, we’re like the biggest train wreck. Like, why did God choose us? He truly chooses the weak things of the world to shame the strong. Like, we’re either like the absolute poster children or the total poster children for nightmares. But I think there is some hope for parents. Like, don’t hold us up as the model. Hold up Jesus. Like, it truly is Jesus who we encountered.
And our parents, as fallen as they are and as fallen as we are as parents, they did introduce us to Jesus. And that is the through line in both of our stories is he remained consistent. He’s faithful even when we were not.
Juli
Yeah. And boy, I’ve interviewed people on this podcast, you know, even to some extent my own story of, yeah, like you did it right. You followed the rules, you saved sex from marriage, didn’t struggle with any of these things. But what I had to learn as a parent was the goal isn’t that. The goal is whatever the journey becomes, whatever struggles there are, like a true encounter with Jesus, that often happens through figuring out what a mess we are and what a mess we make of things ourselves. That’s what we want to raise is people who know and trust Jesus. So let’s start with that. You’re raising your own three children and I’m sure you’re navigating some of this terrain as parents, but how do we need to radically change our approach to discipling our kids in this area compared to what most of us were raised with?
Laurie (12:57.515)
If I was to offer one critique of how I was raised when it came to human sexuality is it was very how I interpreted it. It was very marriage oriented. Very sex oriented in that it’s no, no, no, no, no until it’s yes. And then it’s perfect in marriage. But I missed the gospel.
The gospel vision for my life and how marriage is a part of God’s preaching to us, His covenant love to us. And singleness also preaches a gospel picture in that it’s a vision of our eternal reality. I missed the vertical piece when it came to talking about human sexuality. I heard the horizontal relational. I interpreted it as legalistic. You do good, you get good, you are good. As opposed to God has this beautiful. God has a beautiful purpose in the world to restore and redeem everyone to him.
Juli
Yeah.
Laurie (14:23.17)
And I get to be a part of that. Marriage and singleness and sexuality fit into that, but there’s this greater mission. So I wish I had heard the exciting mission because when I failed sexually, I felt I was a failure.
Juli
Yeah, well, that’s a good distinction. Matt, would you say, yeah, that’s my story exactly, or would it be different?
Matt
I mean, yes and no, right? Like we both came out of kind of the purity culture era. And so there was that like, you know, don’t don’t do it. Wait until marriage. All that. don’t think I got quite as much as as a man. I don’t think I got quite as much of that. If you do this, you are bad. But it was very much that if you do the right things, then you will have this perfect experience in marriage. Like it wasn’t a gospel-centered, you know, message around sexuality. I know the purpose of it. I didn’t know the the value of, why did God create us as sexual beings and a reflection of Him? Like that was not a part of it.
Juli (15:33.454)
Yeah, I don’t think anybody was talking at that level, you know, until recently in terms of understanding the why. I think one of the things that’s so different as you’re raising your kids right now, some of the assumptions that we were working with even 10 or 15 years ago are no longer accepted norms. Like, for example, when we talk about, you know, God created sex for marriage.
Okay, well, what is marriage? You know, is marriage a man and a woman? Why can’t it be a woman and a woman or a man and a man? And the whole gender conversation of gender dysphoria and I’m not sure who I am identity wise. Like some of those assumptions are just blown out of the water. I think even within Christian culture and Christian family. So you’re having to with your kids go back and, and define things at a very basic level where we didn’t have to do that 15 years ago. can you talk about how from the very youngest of ages we start teaching our kids a worldview in terms of understanding some of these basic assumptions?
Laurie
Yep. So for me, it begins and always comes back to what is the purpose of our life. And the way we see it and believe it is, you the purpose of our life is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. But sometimes it gets a little ethereal when you’re trying to explain that to a five-year-old. So a way I can say that is, is how, what can you do that says, love you best, Jesus? So that’s one thing I’ll say. Now, what I just said, that’s a whole conversation with a three year old. That’s like this start to finish five year old. So that’s the whole thing. OK, now we’re to say that over and over. But here’s a phrase you’re to hear around the Krieg house a lot. The purpose of your life is to push back the darkness and usher in the light.
How I might say that in more deep theological terms is your purpose is to advance, vocational purpose. This is like the doing. Yes, we enjoy God. But here’s what he wants us to do. Is he created the world good? Sin messed it up. He wants to advance his kingdom everywhere. Our mission is to advance the kingdom of God until everyone everywhere is living in joyful submission to King Jesus for God’s glory and our good. Kid-speak.
Your mission is to push back the darkness and usher in the light. I hear nothing about human marriage in that. But I hear some pretty like exciting like, okay. My kids, I’m like, you’re a warrior. You’re a light warrior. In Krieg, our last name actually means war in German. So I’m always like, who are you? Like we’re warriors.
Laurie (18:36.114)
But even if your last name is not Krieg, you’re still a warrior because…God has this incredible mission to advance His rule and reign everywhere. What an exciting mission. I get excited about that whether God has called me to marriage or singleness. Whether I experience attractions toward the same sex or I wrestle with gender or my friend does, our purpose does not change. If the purpose of our life is to get married and make Christian babies and tithe and die.
If I’m not straight or I wrestle with gender, I have sex before marriage or I don’t know who I am or I’m asexual, I’m not attracted to anyone, then my mission, if that’s my mission, is to get married and make Christian babies and tithe and die. It crumbles at some point. Well, okay, if that’s the focus of my life, then I’m attracted to the same sex, mom and dad. So now what?
Juli
Mm-hmm.
Laurie
But if your purpose is to advance the kingdom of God until everyone everywhere is living in joyful submission to King Jesus, that’s okay, so I feel these attractions are the same sex. Okay, surrender those to Jesus and get back to doing the work. So we say this at a young age, that phrase. So when our kids, I’ll just give one example and then I’ll let you jump in or let Matt. When our kids say, mom, I don’t want to go to school. Mom, why do I have to do this or that? I might’ve heard growing up, you need to go to school because you need to become a marketable spouse and get married and get out.
Juli
Wow, that’s rough.
Laurie
Yeah. Or my parents would have said that, but you, you hear that in Christendom. But what if instead I said, this is what we say, you need to go to school because God has given you incredible gifts. And when you go to school, you learn what those are and you get to advance the kingdom of God in a special way. You get to push back the darkness and usher in the light alongside other light warriors. Isn’t that so cool?
Juli
Yeah.
Laurie
So the focus needs to be over and over and over. What is the mission of God? So that when our children encounter their version of sexual brokenness within them or they see it around them or when or if God calls them to marriage or singleness, the mission is the same. And if they’re praying through their marriage and singleness in light of the mission of God, it just changes everything.
So that’s where I think parents need to begin is what is the purpose of your life? And I think many of us don’t know.
Juli (21:25.302)
Yeah, that’s powerful. Do you want to add anything to that, Matt?
Matt
Well, yeah, and so much of the young, like the very young age, the early start with this is about just baseline. What is purpose? When we’re talking about marriage, it’s not a when you get married, it’s an if statement because there is we want to leave the door open for God that He might call them to singleness and that doesn’t change their purpose. But then so much of the other like beginning conversations, especially in the like internet age that we live in is about body safety is about like, hey, just the realistic outlook that at some point they will probably come across some some stuff that at least indicates some sort of sexuality, whether it’s in the movie that they’re watching, even cartoons that, you know, have some innuendo or something in it, you know, or stumbling across something online that they might be confused by. And so to really just start the conversation so that if they run across something, they know that it’s okay to come to us rather than going into isolation and in that maybe curiosity that a kid’s going to naturally feel that they don’t just keep going back and learning about sex through those things, but rather through relationship with us.
Juli
Okay, so when you make that statement about our purposes to push out the darkness and usher in the light, my visual is about how we interact with people, about culture and all that. But where the scripture talks about us first is understand the darkness that’s within us. You know, I think one of the distinctions between a biblical worldview and what we’re immersed in in our culture is the understanding that our flesh and our desires are not always set on good things. They’re not trustworthy. You know, one way I put it is where do you look for truth? Like even telling a five-year-old, is truth what I feel or is truth what God says? And so how do we navigate that? Again, there’s a complexity here of our culture telling us, you know, if we’re talking about sexually, like if I feel attracted to the same sex, therefore I am gay, therefore that’s my orientation, therefore that’s a truth. I’m not allowed to act on it, but that’s what’s true about me instead of scripture saying, actually, like all of us have a flesh and a sin nature that is going to warp God’s good gifts. And God begins by addressing the darkness that’s in us.
So I guess how do we integrate that into real life parenting and teaching kids that?
Laurie
So we talk a lot in our home. We use the language of brokenness a decent amount. And we try and separate sin from identity a lot. I was very intentional about that from birth. our kids, mom, they’ll hang their heads. They start at 18 months, 12 months, you can start to see shame. So they do something wrong and we’ll say, oh, buddy, that was not right. That was sin. Or let’s say sorry. Then I’m sorry. And then we started this practice from a young age, like because they’ll still hang their heads and kind of hate themselves from a very young age. And we’ll say, you know, I’ll quote, think it’s Isaiah fifty-five where it says, I’ve cast away your sin like the morning mist. And so I read that once. And when our kids.
Laurie (25:19.87)
After they they sinned, I started this practice where I was like, hey, buddy, you’re not bad. What you did was sinful. I said, you know, it’s gone. I literally did this yesterday. I said, it’s whoosh. And I quote the verse to them. I was like, it’s we can whoosh it away. That sin is gone. God has taken it. Jesus took it on the cross. You don’t have to hang your head down. So in that moment, what I’m doing is you are not your sin.
Now to go back to the brokenness, again, that’s whole sermon for a little kid. That was it. It was one, two minutes. Another conversation we have in the language of brokenness is they may have done something wrong. And again, shame just sneaks up on little kids and on adults. And so they may be hanging their head and I may say like, you know, one of our kids can really struggle with anger in a not always toward justice way.
Juli
Hmm hmm.
Laurie
I’m the worst. Why am I so angry and I’m always mad? Hey, that’s what you struggle with. But guess what I struggle with? Literally, we go around the room and we name like, what’s dad struggle with? Like, anxiety. Like everyone can name what they struggle with. Okay. But then we say, and what are we supposed to do? We all struggle with things. This is the language. Every single week I’m saying this almost every day.
We all need to take these things we struggle with and instead of go with the struggle, we need to take it to Jesus to help us with it. So again, I’m trying to separate action from core identity. And then in that sort of scenario, I’m trying to teach that you can go to Jesus with your struggles so that if and when they see their version of sexual brokenness, they’re going to know, I got to take this to Jesus, just like I’ve been taking everything else.
Juli (27:13.71)
Yeah. And so that distinguishing between the things I wrestle with, my brokenness versus the choice I make to step into sin. And I think for a lot of people, kids and adults, it all gets mixed together where we can’t separate the two. And we don’t know what to confess. We don’t know what to feel guilty about or convicted about. It’s just an ongoing struggle.
Laurie
Well, if I may say, in the LGBT conversation, if you use the language of everyone is broken, everyone wrestles with sin, and we all need to take it to Jesus, it’s really easy to apply it to an LGBTQ affirming world. So for example, mom, why does that boy look like a girl? Or why does that girl, why is she dating another girl? Well, she struggles with attractions toward the same sex. And instead of saying, Jesus, will you help me with that? She’s going with the struggle and she’s dating a girl. Now, all of a sudden, like, context. You have a framework in your home for sin struggles and the framework of needing to take it to Jesus. And then it’s easy to talk about things like that.
Juli
Right. Yeah. You’re sitting over there quiet, Matt. I wonder if you have something you want to chime in there.
Matt
I mean, it’s and again, like this is not a just for sexual sin type of reorientation, right? Like you mentioned, like, what does dad struggle with, anxiety? And I’m thinking for myself, like, OK, when I struggle, it’s easy for me to go and to do all the things that I can do to cognitively wrap my head around how to manage my anxiety or how I can budget differently, so, because mine is a lot of times financial in nature.
Laurie
It’s not that anxiety alone is a sin. It goes to fear.
Matt
Yeah, it to just fear and eliminate all these things and that control seeking my own power and strength over this issue. if we could only save X amount more per month, then I would be. Chimes into this idolatrous place. And for me, like I need to look and say, okay, God, you are the provider. You have the cattle on a thousand hills. Like I do not need to worry about providing for myself. Yes, I need to work and be a provider. Like, yes, he has called me to do that, but like, I am not the one in control and I can’t try and wrest that control away from God. And so like, this isn’t just like a sexuality reorientation. This is any struggle, right? We can only run to something that we try and control or give into on our own that we believe will satisfy and it won’t.
Juli
Yeah, and I think that’s key also to be able to teach our kids about anger and selfishness and lying and teach them the process that you’re talking about, which is really the gospel. And then when it’s time to apply it to sexuality, they have a framework for it. And one of the things I think many of us grew up with was, okay, this is a Christian life and how you deal with struggles and sin. then sexuality is sort of this separate category that nobody really talks about that you keep a secret, that there’s a lot of shame around and it’s treated differently instead of, no, like this is part of the human condition and this is part of trusting in Jesus and bringing things to him. So I love that framework that you’re giving kids young, even if you’re not yet applying it completely to sexuality.
A lot of parents are struggling with just the choices that they make with their kids even the school-age kids like you all have, you can’t even watch a Disney show or, you know, engage with anything in our culture today without some pretty aggressive messaging around how we think about love and marriage and sex and gender. How are you two navigating that? Are you kind of saying we’re going to try to keep our kids from that kind of content or are you talking them through it?
Laurie (31:45.01)
In our book, and even in the film project, we don’t say all yes or all no. It takes wisdom. We define wisdom so our book is raising wise kids. We define wisdom as walking in the way of Jesus and that takes learning. So if there are overt messages, not just about LGBTQ, but you know, super violent or you know, okay, that person, you know, is having sex outside of marriage or just, I don’t know, just even how girls and boys treat each other. Just turn it off. It’s like overt. This is a huge message. This LGBTQ affirming or all these other things I listed message. Let’s turn it off. But we’ll talk about why. And yeah, well, we are turning it off, we are not going to do so while going, ugh, why is the world going to hell in a handbasket? I’ve been in this space for so long and usually my first instinct, especially when it comes to anger, is not usually righteous anger. I have to filter that through the hands of God. And so we try to model to our kids, Matthew 23, Jesus grieving over Jerusalem. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills prophets.
Laurie
I’ve longed to gather you together like a mother hen gathers her chicks, but you wouldn’t let me. I want that heart when I’m turning off the TV. So when we’re turning it off, it’s not scoffing. It’s not judgmental looking down. It’s that sort of heart. And then we say why we explain. We say this over and over in our book. We say this in the film project too is how to talk about it. How can we talk about marriage? Not in a way. Well, it’s Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. How can we actually talk about the beauty of God’s gospel vision through marriage? How do we talk about that in that moment in like a minute? Or, and then if it’s not as overt, we have different layers. Like, you know, if it’s not as overt, you know, maybe we’ll pause it and we’ll talk about it. If it’s just, takes wisdom. And then if it’s just like a background character, maybe we’ll still say something, but we’re not gonna automatically turn it off.
Juli
Do your kids do the eye roll when you pause it and explain or are they still at the ages where they’re like, are they enjoying those conversations?
Laurie
They can do that. We know mom. When moms and dads love each other, they show me a picture of how much God loves me. So, they’re welcome. They can be mad at me. I’ll take it.
Juli (34:20.366)
They’re getting it.
Laurie
They’re getting there! I’m like, okay, you know.
Matt
They are getting it. And in some ways they help us to police it. We tend to have like a going into something if we’re not familiar with it, if we don’t know what’s coming, we’ll have like a three strikes your out rule and like they will actually start to police as they’re like, there’s there’s strike one mom. And it’s like a, or something. mean, it’s not just sexuality related stuff, but like they’re, they’re starting to develop their own wisdom and everything. And it’s, it’s good. Like, cause we’re, that’s what we’re trying to teach them. It’s not just us dictating. It’s for them to say like, you know what, this isn’t maybe what’s good for me to watch right now. And sure, they probably have times when they don’t want to follow that.
Juli (35:06.324)
Yeah. Boy, I love that. Yeah. Okay. So parents are listening and they’re like, all right, that’s a great role model. And I really want to be in the place where I’m doing that with my kids, like discipling them this way and processing sexuality and culture with them this way. But I’ve got my own baggage and you guys have shared at the beginning of our conversation, some of the things that you’ve walked through and you’ve done a lot of work personally, to pursue wholeness, to find freedom. Most parents haven’t done that work and they sort of see a vision of where they want to take their kids, but they’re like, I’m not there yet. So how do you begin to navigate as a parent your own brokenness, maybe in your marriage? Maybe there’s a single parent who wants to talk through this with their kids or again, people that are struggling with pornography or with some difficulty that they’ve never told anybody about. So can you talk about why that’s important and how you begin to address some of your own stuff?
Laurie
Yes. You start with today. Like, God gave us our kids on purpose. I’ve told one of my kids little bits of my story. And there’s a part of me that’s like so afraid of when they know everything and like, are they going to reject me? How’s that going to go down? And I have to keep telling myself that.
Laurie (36:45.454)
Laurie, God is going to give them the grace because he’s given you these kids and he’s given these kids you. So you start with today just kind of accepting what’s real is this is your story and these are your kids and you’re you. Accepted. Here we are. And then I can find this even as a parent. So even as I was writing the book, you, Juli, you saw I cite like 60,000 sources. I read so much and I learned a lot and there was some things I was like, well, haven’t done that yet. Well, I guess I’ll go talk to the kids about that. So, yeah, I think not giving up on yourself and just saying, you know what? Man, I wish I had right after college, like Laurie said, started my healing journey, but I didn’t. Well, you can start today. You can reach out to that mentor, that friend, pick up that book, just start praying, like just talking to God about what’s going on and.
I’ll tell you what, my parents are pushing 80 years old and I’m a grown up and watching them grow now impacts me. So I think no matter how old your kids are, no matter how old you are, it’s just never too late to start with today on your healing journey.
Juli (38:08.02)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. That’s good. Yeah. And some of that healing journey, some of the wounds, I think particularly this generation of parents might be wrestling with is like some anger towards the church on these topics. Some of maybe the simplistic messages they grew up with or church hurt or some of the leaders that have disappointed them and fallen. How do you begin to work through that instead of just sort of pitching it all and being like, don’t know. I don’t know that the Bible has anything good to say about sex?
Laurie
So true. Yeah.
Matt
I mean, think if people are coming in and they’re aware of their church hurt and their disillusionment with some of the things that have gone on, that’s a great place to start, right? If they’re aware of the places where they’ve been let down to differentiate, what makes Jesus different than the pastor who had the affair or whatever other situations you can think of, it’s just that their place of pain is the place of, of where God wants to reach in and really show who he truly is. And Laurie, to go back to what you were saying, like you did a lot of research, right? And you learned a lot and people there are a lot of good books out there and you can read a lot and know a lot and be a source of good information. But going through your own story is what helps to make you an approachable person for your kids to know they can come to.
Matt (39:42.904)
Because you can have all the right answers and still be just unapproachable and scary, know, or domineering or whatever else. And so to go through our own work of our own pain and to hopefully really instill grace to ourselves and then also out to our kids and those around us is half the battle.
Juli
Yeah. And like you guys have said, you haven’t shared your story with your kids yet, but the processing that you’ve gone through, the healing you’ve gone through, it’s unspoken. There’s an unspoken quality when we have a conversation about sexuality that is kind of shrouded in fear and shame versus being free. And so that healing journey is not just about what you say, but it’s about the presence that you bring to this conversation.
Laurie
And all the studies show that, like an effective sex talk, it’s mostly about how you say it in the countenance with which you offer information. And this was secular studies. So I don’t say that to shame or to panic anyone, but the intangible work is to emphasize what you’re saying. It carries with you. You bring them into the conversation.
Juli
Yeah. So there are a couple, I think, evolutions that have happened over the last 10 years or so that are causing a lot of fear for parents. One of them is the transgender movement and just all the youth that is getting kind of sucked into gender confusion. The other one is, you know, pornography has been there for a long time, but boy, the research shows and it just seems like it is a-whole-nother level now for boys and for girls. And when you start to integrate like what artificial intelligence is gonna do to pornography and virtual reality, like it’s terrifying. So can you talk about those two things in particular and how parents can equip their kids for facing those kinds of challenges?
Laurie (41:57.274)
I’ll do it briefly. Gender is defined by your biological potential to make babies. So I’m telling you how do we define girl and boy and so often we’ve talked about it in terms of what we do as opposed to our bodies. Our bodies define who we are. So a girl is someone who has the natural potential to have a baby in her tummy. Even someone who is infertile or celibate has the natural potential to have a baby. So when our kids are young, we need to say what makes a girl? She has a vagina and she has breasts and she can get pregnant.
It’s not what we do. It’s not that she plays with girl legos instead of boy legos. She has a vagina and she can have breasts and she can have a baby in her tummy. That’s we say from a very young age. Kids need to understand that that’s what makes them a boy or girl. Boys can help to fertilize an egg to make a baby. What makes a boy? He has a penis and he can help make a baby. Boom.
Laurie
Cause kids, find that they feel very, when we start being like a boy plays with a doll, we say, you’re such a good mom that messes with you. Why can’t he be a good dad with his boy penis being nurturing of a baby? It’s not what he does. makes them a girl. It’s his biology. So I would say we need to, from a very young age, talk about what it means to be a boy or girl with based on biology. So it’s very simplistic.
Laurie (43:43.246)
Now when, When our kids do things that are more stereotypical girlish, if a boy is doing something like playing with a baby or wants to paint his nails, we can say things like, you know, boys don’t usually do that, but because you’re a boy and you want to do that, that makes it boyish. So I think we are adding confusion when we define what we do instead of our biology. So I’m going to pause there because that was a lot. There’s a lot we can dive in there unless you want to jump to pornography.
Juli (44:09.43)
Yeah, I’d love to ask some follow up questions. like, let’s, I love that. I love that very frank language that defines boy or girl by our biology. Some parents are going to be uncomfortable using those words and you got to push through it because it’s what our kids need to hear. Yes. But I will say, okay, so what happens if you do have, say a six year old boy who’s painting his nails?
Do you just say, okay, well, that’s boyish now that you’re painting? Like, to what extent do we teach our kids to recognize different expressions of male and female culture?
Mm-hmm.
Matt
Yeah, I mean, think there’s a non-reactive approach to this, That you don’t see your boy painting his nails and be like, my goodness, I’m going to run down the train track of what this could be as far as like a gender dysphoria issue. More of it starts out as like, hey, curiosity, why?
What is it about painting your nails that you want to do? Like, why is that something that could be like my older sisters are doing and I just want to fit in and like, okay, great. You can paint your nails. That’s fine. Hey, just to let you know, most boys don’t do that. And then depending on their age, six year old going to school, like, is that going to be something where they might get made fun of? You know, kids are not always angelic creatures. They have this in nature and they can be a little bit cruel.
Matt (45:46.792)
And so like, some of it even is like being able to push back, not because of fear of what the running down the train tracks about gender issues, but about like, hey, I don’t want you to get just blasted at school because people see this and then react and make fun of you. You know, like there is a level of just protection and care that we can offer in like, hey, let’s talk about this.
You know, but it’s not from a, hope you’re not trans type of thing. It’s a, I just know that kids are going to be probably mean. And so, hey, you can maybe paint them and have fun with your sisters right now, but then we’re going to take it off before you go to school tomorrow. Like, and, and it’s this non-reactive, it’s not making something, you know, that’s not very big deal into this massive thing that you’re afraid of. And oftentimes they get it. They’ve had to deal with being made fun of or they’ve made fun of people and it’s not a huge deal unless we make it a huge deal.
Juli
Mm-hmm. Okay, that’s really good. Yeah, how about, you know, the research is showing that in this younger generation, about 20 % of young adults or teens are identifying as LGBTQ. Some percentage of that is in the gender kind of realm. How do we teach our kids to respect people, maybe other kids that are from different homes that are transitioning, social transitioning while also helping them maintain a biblical view of male and female?
Laurie
Mm-hmm. Lots of conversation. Again, you can kind of hear the breakdown in the book of just like what? Sometimes I’m like, can you just give me a sentence in my mouth? So that can help. I love that’s why I love the framework of brokenness. So you know our friend so and so? Yes. So she struggles. She was born with, girl. What’s it mean to be a girl?
Again, you you re-say these things to little kids over and over. What’s the meaning of being well, she was born with a vagina. She can make babies. Yep. Great. She’s struggling with how she feels inside of her girl body. She actually feels like she’s more like a boy inside than a girl. Again, freeze. Is she a boy? You have to slow the train down over and over. No, why isn’t she? Because of this. Now she’s struggling. Do we all struggle with things? We do. Let’s go around the circle and name what we struggle with. She struggles with this. Now, she’s trying to take it to Jesus or she’s not taking it to Jesus. And instead, she’s going with the struggle. Her friends are encouraging her to transition. So we love her. So it’s always like, what’s happening? What’s true? How are we going to love her? So how are we going to treat this person? Do you notice I’m having pre-conversations? This is not in the moment.
How are we going to treat her? We’re going to tell her she’s not a boy. No. can’t tell you. This is why you coach your kids. No? We’re going to say, love you. And then we could have another hour long conversation about what do you do about names and pronouns and all of that. And we offer options in the book. What’s the reality? What’s God’s design? How are we going to love them? it’s like rinse and repeat. Keep doing that.
Juli (49:15.636)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Boy, I love it. And again, you guys are tackling such real issues with theological depth and practical words and tools. And that’s why I just so appreciate what you’re doing. before we end the conversation, again, we get to talk for hours. I do want you to hit on the pornography conversation and just the reality of what our kids are swimming with in terms of pornography. Boy, it comes in through every portal you can imagine nowadays. So, how do we help them through that?
Matt
Yeah. Well, I think part of it is making sure that we are a gatekeeper, right? So that we are not just letting them have unfettered access to the internet with the thought that they will never be hurt. The fact is that porn companies are targeting younger kids. They want kids to get hooked and they know all the algorithms. They are searching actively to find your kids.
And so to have filters on your devices, have, you know, if you know sites that are blocked and you can block it at the, all the different levels, there’s a website called for an organization called Protect Young Eyes. We would definitely recommend. There’s so many different layers of protections you can put up and they’re amazing. They’re tech- are not tech people. So to protect them from the accidental exposure, right, is one thing.
The other is kids are curious and at some point they might, you know, take that curiosity and go toward sexuality, whether it’s, in this case, pornography, if they do. And if that’s something that we find out about that, that is, that’s not hopefully the first time we have the conversation about it to let them know like, hey, there are some stuff out there that’s going to maybe make you feel a little confused or icky or something. Please come talk to us.
Matt (51:19.712)
To be inviting those conversations before they ever get exposed to it. know from from me, that is not what my story was. It was I was I saw something was curious. Someone was like, yes, here you go. And then my dad said, no, don’t we don’t do that in this house. But that was the end of it. That was the end of the conversation. And so we really want to invite our kids to be in an ongoing conversation because porn wants to turn them into sexual consumers.
And God is, well, God is not a consumer, he is a provider and we are supposed to model him in every aspect of our life. And so some of this goes from not just about sexuality or porn issues, it’s like, how are we teaching our kids to be creative and provisional rather than just consumers in life? How are we being more present and attuned in our relationships rather than distracted or absent or avoidant. And that’s not something that’s just about sex, but porn definitely cultivates it. Porn is gonna make them want to isolate, to go and cloister off just with this screen and be kind of encased in this world of pornography. And that’s what porn companies are trying to create.
And so the fight is not just against like that one instance of it is how does consumption and avoidance and passivity and all these things, how do those get created and cultivated in our life? Not just on a screen, but all over. And so we want to create healthy mindsets with our kids, but it starts in so many different little ways of how to create creative, active, attuned, and hopefully provisional kids.
Juli (53:13.336)
So I said early in our conversation that you guys were sort of the fear of Christian parents, but I hope people also see right now like you are the hope for Christian parents because you both have so much hope. Like I have this feeling as you’re talking, you’re not just afraid keeping the bad stuff out. Like you’re not just getting rid of the darkness, you’re actually bringing in the light. So as we close, would you just share why you have so much hope not just as you encourage other parents, but even in your own parenting journey?
Laurie
You’re gonna make me cry, Juli. I’m just, I’ve been praying about this space for so long. Like not just in active ministry world, but for our own kids because it’s so close to home in our stories. And then we, God had us have these kids. But as I pray and even in the midst of experiencing such pushback, like the spiritual pushback to this work is…I’ve never experienced it this intense in 11 years of doing this work.
Juli
Yeah.
Laurie (54:21.378)
It’s it’s refining God’s hearts in his passion and his like furious love for his light to shine. So it’s like the more we engage, the more we experience the struggle and it truly is this refining fire that I’m like, Lord, you have so much hope for this generation. And it’s like, as you step into his heart to rescue and redeem, the dark becomes so clearly dark and the light is like, my word, God is real. So the hope I have is in not running from this battle. I am experiencing more of the hope in the heart of Jesus for this next generation. And I’m like giddy up. Let’s let’s equip them right now.
Juli (55:21.272)
I am so grateful to Laurie and Matt for giving such a hopeful vision for parenting, even when boy, it feels overwhelming and confusing. I hope this conversation has been an encouragement to you and has helped you see that these tough topics aren’t conversations that we should be afraid of, but they’re actually opportunities to shape our kids with the truth, the grace and confidence in God’s good design.
If you want to go deeper, would highly recommend that you pre-order your copy of Raising Wise Kids in a Sexually Broken World and check out the video curriculum I mentioned called Christian Sexuality Raising Kids Today. And we’re going to link to both of those in our show notes. You will also find a link there to the survey that I mentioned earlier, and I would really love it and be so grateful if you took the time to fill that out. Well, thanks for joining me today, and I look forward to having coffee with you next time for more Java with Juli.