Transcript: How To Talk to Your Husband (When All You Want To Do Is Yell at Him), #580
How do you speak life to your husband when all you want to do is yell at him?
Juli sits down for a candid conversation with author Ann Wilson about the transformative power of our words. Hear how Ann discovered that her (helpful!) criticism, even her subtle “sophisticated nagging,” wasn’t helping her husband at all—in fact, it was hurting both of them.
With real-life stories and practical wisdom, this conversation proves that a few well-chosen words can transform a marriage.
Prefer to listen? Listen to the full episode here.
Ann (00:00.11)
I said, I see everything. Nobody else sees all that stuff, but I’m helping you and I’m showing you the things that you could be better. And he goes, but Ann, is it even helping? I’m like, no, it’s not helping. So I have to say it louder or more often. But he said, all I know, Ann, is it just feels like I can’t do anything quite right. You have to tweak me. You have to fix me. You have to compare me. And honestly, it’s really hard.
Juli
Hey friend, welcome to Java with Juli. I am your host, Juli Slattery, and this podcast is an outreach of Authentic Intimacy, a ministry dedicated to helping you make sense of God and sexuality. My guest today is a good friend of mine. She’s the author of a new book called “How to Speak Life to Your Husband When All You Want to Do is Yell at Him”. I am really excited to share this conversation with you because I really love Ann Wilson. She’s an amazing woman. She’s so relatable and raw.
She shares stories from her own marriage, things that God has taught her and continues to teach her. And she just makes you feel like she’s right alongside you pursuing God and trying to work through struggles in marriage. In this particular conversation, we’re going to be talking about the power of a wife’s words. And boy, this is one that just convicts me every time I think about it. It certainly convicted me in reading Ann’s new book and the conversation that we had.
And as a bonus, Ann’s husband, Dave, who is also really honest and fun, popped in for a few minutes to share his take on the conversation and how Ann has changed over the years. Ann and Dave are the hosts of the national radio broadcast, Family Life Today. They’ve been on Java with Juli before. In fact, it was one of our most popular episodes, so I’m going to drop a link to that one in our show notes. So for now, let’s head to the coffee shop for my fun and informative conversation with Ann Wilson.
Juli (02:03.31)
Well, Ann, talking to you, I don’t feel like this is work at all. Thanks so much for being on with me and for the conversation we’re gonna have.
Ann
Juli, I love you. I’m such a fan. You’re such a good friend. I would hang out with you every day if I could.
Juli
Yeah, that’s how I feel about you. Like we have so much in common. I love just having honest conversations with you. And boy, this book is just a delight. It’s one that I read and endorsed. Congratulations for writing it. I know it’s already having an impact, but the book is called, “How to Speak Life to Your Husband When All You Want to Do Is Yell at Him”. So I feel like the title says it all.
Ann (02:48.086)
And Juli, I feel like we’re on the same page with this topic because how to find the hero in your husband, it is kind of along that same vein. And I feel like I’ve learned a lot from you. I’ve gone through your books and I feel like that’s helped me. I’ve done it with small groups of women. But I think this topic of either finding the hero in your husband or speaking life to your husband, that’s a wrestling match right there. It’s not always easy.
Juli
Yeah, and if we were to go in our time machine and you and I were to have met like say 30 something years ago, and we were those young wives frustrated at marriage, frustrated at our husbands, like feeling like he’s not meeting our expectations, we would be asking the questions like that we’re gonna be tackling today. Yeah. It’s really like, I don’t wanna speak life to my husband, why should I? And that’s not gonna get him to change.
Like I need to let him know all the ways that he’s failing and I need to give him advice on how to take care of me. So that’s the real thing. And I know you are mentoring women and young marriages. I’m doing the same and that keeps us honest. I think after you’ve been married for a couple of decades, you’re like, okay, I’ve learned these lessons. It’s still a challenge at times, but boy, in that first decade of marriage, this is really rough.
I’m guessing that’s kind of what prompted you to get this on paper.
Ann
Yeah, I think our 10 year anniversary, we almost didn’t make it. And that’s why we wrote the book, “Vertical Marriage”. But then I think what I saw myself doing is, here are my thoughts. If only, if only Dave would get his act together, I could be so happy. If only Dave would lead spiritually, we could be great. If only Dave would have more energy in the home that he does outside the home, we could be amazing. And so… and I think we do that as women. We’re kind of evaluating relationships and our home life and our marriage. And so I think that can be natural, but man, around year 15 to 20, I was stuck. And I just wanted Dave to change, thinking if he did, I could be really happy.
And I also thought my words that I was saying, my critiques or pointing out what he wasn’t doing right, I wasn’t necessarily yelling, but I was just like pointing out things that he could be better in. And it had the opposite effect. I thought he’d think, well I’ll show her how great I am at this. And then I’d have these subtle little like, I call it sophisticated nagging, where I’d say things like, gosh, you know, I was talking to Paula today and she was saying that Steve reads the Bible every night to their kids. Isn’t that cool?
Ann
And I thought he’d think, well, wow, if he’s doing that, I should be doing that. No, it had the opposite effect. He just wanted to get away from me. And I didn’t know that a lot of men can feel like, and they may not say it, Juli, they might, because I know that Dave was feeling like I can’t do anything right. And I don’t think men always verbalize those feelings of, wow, you can’t find anything good about me.
Juli
One of things I love about you and Dave is he’s so open. He says the thing out loud that guys might be feeling that they don’t have the words to say or they don’t have the courage to say it. And he’ll say it in front of a thousand people, which is like, all right, now that you put that out there, all the guys are nodding. That’s how I feel. And all the women are like, really? He’s so good at that.
Ann
Yes. I was just going to say at the end of each chapter, Dave writes in the book, kind of just a page or two of a guy’s perspective of what we just talked about. It’s my favorite part of the book because I think we as women can think, really? That’s what you think? Or that’s exactly what my husband and that gives you an opportunity to say to your husband, is this what it feels like to you?
Ann (07:05.172)
Because Dave is honest in it and I’m embarrassed of how mean I was at times, or just how disappointed I was in him at times, and selfish.
Juli
Okay, so I want to rewind for a few minutes here because you mentioned some of the chronology of your marriage. I did have a conversation with you and Dave when your book, “Vertical Marriage”, came out. We talked about kind of how you guys hit that wall around your 10th anniversary. And we’ll link to that conversation because it’s an amazing story. But you just said, even after that, like once you guys start to really focus on the Lord, you started learning to love each other.
Then you said like years 15 to 20 or so, like that’s when God convicted you about your words. So I would have thought it was like year one through seven or 10. So tell me about that.
Ann
Well, I think Dave and I, and if you listen to that podcast, we love doing that podcast with you. I think Dave and I went through this period after that of like, we need to first of all, repent. We need to get our walks right with Jesus. And in marriage, we’re always doing these hills and valleys. And so, you know, we got to that stage and maybe some of your listeners are in these stages too, where you’re so busy.
You’ve got kids, now our kids are in elementary school at year 15 and we’re just running fast. We’re both super busy. And so I tend to be very performance oriented. I tend to be very hard on myself, wanting things to be really great. And so I’m always analyzing, how’s our marriage? How are our kids? How am I doing parenting? How are we doing parenting? And so.
Ann (08:55.256)
We’re in this busy phase and we were asked at our church by the moms of preschoolers if I would come to speak to these moms. And I said, yeah, I’d be happy to. And then I said, Dave, you should come with me. They’d love it. You’re the pastor. If you came, they would love it. So he goes, yeah, I totally would do that. So we get up there, Juli, and you know Dave so well. I said, like, how do we want to do this? He goes, I don’t know. Let’s just wing it, which I’m like, okay. So we’re sitting on these stools and all of sudden,
Dave gets really amped up during this little talk and he starts pacing this stage. And he says to these women, like, ladies, I don’t know if you get what it’s like for us as guys, because there’s usually some time when we’re little, we have a parent or some like a grandparent or somebody that’s cheering us on. And there’s like, hey, you’re good at this. Look at you. Good job, hon. And he said, then we get older and we kind of find that little niche or the things we’re good at. We have coaches or professors or somebody or music instructors saying, hey, you are great at this. Good job. And he said, I played college football. I was a quarterback. So I have coaches and fans on Saturdays like Dave Wilson, you’re the man. And he said, and basically I meet Ann and she says of all the men in the world, I choose you, Dave Wilson. You’re the man. And she’s cheering me.
Ann
Juli, I’m sitting back here on this stool thinking he has never shared anything like this. in our entire lives. I’ve never heard him say any of this before. And I was feeling like, that’s so interesting. I never thought of that. And yeah, I did choose him because he is the man. But then his tone drops. His whole demeanor changes because he was super energetic doing that. And he goes, but then you know what happens when we’re married a while? It feels like we walk in the door. And when I walk in the door at the end of the day, it feels like all I hear and all we hear is boo, boo.
And I’m sitting back here on the stool like, wait, what just happened? What is happening right now? I don’t even know how we ended the talk because I was embarrassed, humiliated. Like, what is he talking about? We get in the car and I’m like, what was that? He goes, I don’t know. It just came out. I said, you’ve never shared that ever with me. You think I’m booing you. I am helping you. And I was, I was totally earnest in that.
Ann (11:19.554)
Cause I thought. Man, I’m helping you. said, I see everything. Nobody else sees all that stuff, but I’m helping you and I’m showing you the things that you could be better. And he goes, but Ann, is it even helping? I’m like, no, it’s not helping. So I have to say it louder or more often. But he said, all I know, Ann, is it just feels like I can’t do anything quite right. You have to tweak me. You have to fix me. You have to compare me. And honestly, it’s really hard.
Juli
Hmm.
Ann (11:48.748)
And he said this to me later, I know you love me. We’ve been through that really low value. I know you love me. I just don’t think you like me. That was big. So Julia went home and I got on my knees and the first thing I did was vent to God. I think it’s good to do that because we can get on our phones or we can get on social media. We can do all these things, but God wants us to go to Him first. So
I didn’t do a lot of things right, but that’s one of the things I did well. I just like, Lord, can you believe that? I can’t believe it, I am so good at as a wife. And then at the end of my prayer, kind of like David, he, David laments and he talks to God, but then I was like, Lord, what do you think? And there is this conviction in my heart of, and start listening to yourself, start paying attention to what you think and start paying attention to your words.
Ann
And I felt like he was saying, I want you to cheer for him. And I was rebellious because I felt like I’m not seeing much to cheer for. So that is where the journey began around those years of 15. I was reading so many books, yearbook. think that’s when I started reading, Finding Hero in Your Man, your first edition, probably around then, or maybe that was later. But man, God took me on a big, big journey.
And it was a hard one that took me a while to even be willing to listen to what God had to say to me.
Juli
Yeah, boy, thanks for sharing that story. And I’m putting myself in that position of being on stage with my husband and having him say that. And I’ve heard Dave say this, that he actually feels like he can be more vulnerable on stage than he can be when he’s talking one-on-one to you. And so I know you’ve had other situations where like he reveals things like, really? Like, yes, you never told me that.
But I’m thankful that he says that out loud because every wife right now is, I think probably processing when my husband say that, like, does he think I cheer for him or boo him? boy, that might be a very scary question to ask your husband, but it’s a good one to even listen to this together, watch it together and to ask him like, do you feel that way? Tell me about that.
Then you mentioned the word journey and I think that’s so important because I think for many of us, the first step on that journey would be defensiveness. Like, are you kidding? Like, let me tell you all the things that I’m doing well and the ways I do encourage you instead of just receiving that. So how did you get past that knee-jerk reaction to defend yourself?
Ann
You know what I realized, Juli, I didn’t want to cheer Dave because here is my thought. Who cheers me? I do everything around here. And so I think there’s that, I came face to face, it’s like putting a mirror up and I thought, man, I am, there’s a pridefulness and an arrogance in me, which I don’t think I suspected that I had, but because of my response and my defensiveness, man, that was really hard.
Ann (15:03.97)
And this might sound crazy, but I can’t fake it. Like, honey, you’re amazing when I don’t think he is. And so I felt like I could start with saying, thank you. And I feel like one of the greatest questions that God prompted me to ask, I felt like he was saying, Ann, I want you to find the things that I see in Dave. Cause I made him in my image and there’s some incredible attributes and gifts that I put in him. And I want you to start noticing those.
And Juli, you know this with brain science, what we’re seeing now. Like I had gotten into a neurological negative pathway. We actually create those neurological pathways and I just went down a negative path every time. I can remember folding clothes and I’d always get in this rut if Dave was traveling like, he’s never home. I’m folding clothes. You know, I do everything around here. I’m folding clothes. You know, he puts way more energy into everything else, but not us.
Ann
And I felt like God stopped me when I was on that journey. And I felt like he said, what would happen if you prayed for him as much as you complained about him? that was so conflicting. And so the only way I could start was to start saying thank you to Dave. Like Lord, show me the things that Dave is doing right and help me Lord, help me see what you see in him or help me to see the greatness in him. And Juli, God started doing that.
It takes a while. It’s like learning a new language. My language was totally negative. I was afraid that I’d lose my voice and I’m very like, I’m strong. I was like, oh, I don’t want to be just this doormat, you know, nothing wife. I still want to have my voice. Of course God wants us to have our voice. He just wants us to use it in a way that our husbands can hear it. I think Dave had drowned me out. Like he doesn’t even listen because everything is negative.
So I remember I just started saying, hey hon, thanks for bringing in the garbage cans. And he was so surprised, Juli, like, you’re welcome. And this one night I stopped and I said, hey guys, before we pray and eat, I just wanna say, Dave, thanks for working so hard. Like you provide for our family, you work super hard. And he’s been doing this for years, but I never said that. I just took it for granted. Thank you. You know, our kids are like, can we just eat?
Ann (17:26.498)
But Dave told me later, he goes, I know you were reading some book about this on, it was on the table. He goes, I knew it. She’s just doing what she’s supposed to do. He said, but it felt so good. It felt like air to my light. I just felt so good. And so it began slow. But you know what happened is I wasn’t using my words to manipulate. I wasn’t using my words to change Dave. I was asking God to change me.
And he started to change, which was miraculous to me because our words are so powerful. And we as women, as you know, Juli, we have a lot of influence.
Juli
Yeah, we sure do. As you’re describing that, thank you for being vulnerable because I think people see you guys at this stage of marriage and they’re like, well, you know, Dave’s a good guy. Like, of course she would cheer for him. There’s lots of good, but you know, there are couples and there are women right now I can think of who are in that season of marriage where I just can’t see the good at all. Like our marriage is so hard. My husband is so stubborn or he’s so passive or he doesn’t value the things of the Lord and I just am so discouraged that I don’t know how to even begin to change my thinking. And so would you just say like to pick one thing or just start praying? Like what’s that first step?
Ann
I’ve had so many women come up to me and say, you don’t understand, there’s nothing to cheer. He comes home every day, turns on the TV, cracks a beer, and he doesn’t even talk to us. Or he comes home and plays video games until midnight. I’m doing everything. And man, I feel for you like that’s super hard. And I’m sure there’s a lot more to it than just, know, there’s probably stuff in the background. There’s…
Ann (19:23.106)
We all bring baggage and luggage in that affect how we act. But remember this, we’re doing this unto Jesus. And let me say this too, if you’re in an abusive situation, if your husband is hurting you or harming you in any way, we’re not saying, just speak life. We’re saying, get help, get out, get safe, get your kids safe. So we’re talking about a good-willed man. And so I think if you’re in that situation, your prayer is still, ‘Lord, I know that you see good things and I must have seen’, you must have seen something good in him because you married him. You saw something in there. And so that’s the prayer. ‘Lord, show me anything. Show me things from his past. Let me get to know him’. And I’m saying you cannot do it without Jesus. I had to be in the word every day because God reminds me who he is and he reminds me who I am. My happiness doesn’t come from Dave.
My worth doesn’t come from Him. My identity doesn’t come from Him. It comes from Jesus. And I have to have good friends that are walking beside me, a church that’s encouraging me, that’s helping me. So there are pieces to go along, but there are several things. But I think that first prayer is a prayer of repentance and confession. Confession is telling God the truth. Lord, I don’t see anything good. I don’t know what to do. I’m lost. But you say in James that you give wisdom to anyone who asks. So I’m asking you for wisdom. I’m asking you to show me anything, anything God, that is good. And even if you say it once a week, even if you see something, just say it, but try not to say the negative because the Gottman Institute, you’ve probably heard this, you know this Juli, but it takes five positives to negate that negative comment.
And so you might be thinking, I can’t even find five. Juli, what would you say to that listener who’s really struggling?
Juli (21:27.692)
Well, I don’t know that I can improve on the advice that you just gave. You know, I’ve told this story before of something that I had to do when I was probably in that same range of year 15 of marriage, just exhausted. I took out a sheet of paper and I was going to write down like everything I love about Mike. But I was in such a state of frustration and like you said, of those negative thought patterns that I’m like, well, first I’m going to write down everything I’m frustrated about. So I’m like…
Ann
This is in Finding the Hero, isn’t it? Isn’t this in there? Yeah, I think it is too.
Juli
I think it is. I, I felt like I needed to, again, vent, you know, like, well, let me just get this off my chest. Mike’s never going to see this. I’m going to throw it away, destroy it. But I need to be honest with where I am. And then I can say, but here’s what I love about him. And as I began to go down that list and just spend time, like I started at very like basic practical things. I love that he’s tall.
I love that he has broad shoulders. I love that he has blue eyes. Like you start with the physical. And then the more time I spent like really reflecting on that and thinking of the memories that we had together and the qualities that he has that I take for granted. Like the more I started to actually have that heart of repentance of, wow, like all this stuff is here, but I haven’t seen it. And the other thing that I think was really meaningful to me was to have some wise women in my life.
Juli (23:00.79)
Like I can remember one in particular who, when I was in a really frustrated season said, Mike is a good man. And she just kind of said it out of the blue. And I was like, huh, like I trust what she says. Like she sees him as a good man. Like he is a good man. Like why don’t I see that? So yeah, every woman’s journey is gonna be different. But I think part of what we want to communicate is that this is part of the journey that in most marriages, you’re going to go through a season where it’s hard to find the good. Even the scripture talks about like a sacrifice of Thanksgiving or a sacrifice of praise. And sometimes it is an act of worship or a sacrifice, a spiritual sacrifice to say, I choose to focus on what’s good. surrounding yourself again with a few friends who will be on that journey with you. Giving each other challenges. There’s been some great books over the years about love dares and just things where you’re not just focused on what’s good, but you’re actually putting into action, every day I want to do something to bless my husband. yeah, forming new habits.
Ann
I think one of the things that I did in that time as I was praying that, I remember one of the things that I would gripe about in my head was I felt like Dave was being a passive father in terms of spiritually discipling our kids. Now, of course, I had this image of what he should be doing, and I told him.
Juli
And he was a pastor too, because we’re always like, I wish my husband were like the pastor, right? But he was a pastor.
Ann (24:45.782)
And he’s amazing pastor, leader. But I think also when our husbands come home and they’re tired and we’re frustrated. And so when I began that prayer, because as you said, Juli, God gives you these new eyes. It’s like a new lens that you start seeing things. And so I was praying that every day and he went in and he prayed with the boys and I watched him and he came back out and I said, man, I’m really jealous of the influence and power you have over our sons.” And he goes, what do you mean? I go, I watched them and they cling to your words. I don’t even think you understand, like they look at you, they’re looking up to you. They cling to every word you say. You know, it’s bedlam and chaos when I’m in there, but with you, they listen. It’s pretty cool. And then I just walked away. It was so funny because the next night he was up there again and the next night he went up there again.
I don’t think we understand that our words are the most important words that they can hear. They can hear praise from other people. It doesn’t matter nearly as much as ours. But I didn’t give it to him because I thought, he’s getting that everywhere else. Or I didn’t give it to him because I thought he’d think I was satisfied, which is so crazy. But I think there is, when Jesus talks in Matthew about why are you trying to get the thorn out of your husband’s eye or someone else’s eye when you have a plank in your own. And so my prayer also became like, Lord, show me what I’m doing that maybe you want to change. What do want to change in me?
Juli
Yeah. Ann you mentioned, I think, a couple of fears that keep women from embracing this. One of them that you said is he’s getting it everywhere else. Like, I don’t want him to get puffed up. And I heard one wife say, it’s actually my job to level him because everywhere he goes, people are saying nice things about him. So why don’t you react to that first? You kind of already did a little bit. What’s wrong with that thinking?
Ann (26:49.88)
I felt the same thing. Like, are you kidding this dude? He is so self-assured. He has so much confidence. He certainly doesn’t need it from me. And what I’ve seen, and you’ve probably seen this over the years too, Juli, is that men are incredibly, like us, insecure. It makes me emotional thinking that Dave is always wondering, like, do I have what it takes to be a good father, to be a good man, to be a good husband? And most of the time he says, no, I don’t.
And our husbands may not verbalize that. They may put on this bravado that they’re super confident. But I think most men are really insecure. I’ve had people, and I’ve shared this at conferences where I have a plant on the stage. It’s a visual illustration and there’s a little brown leaf on this luscious green plant. But after we have the plant for a while, instead of seeing the luscious leaves in the green, we say, look at that brown leaf.
Ann
And I think that’s what we do as wives. look at that. He has this flaw. And then we get out our pruners and we just clip it off because we think it’s our job to fix them. And then we’re like, this has all kinds of brown plants. So then we get these hedge clippers out and we start just chopping away. Like you’re not romantic. You’re not easy to talk to. You don’t have any energy at home. You don’t lead spiritually. We could go down our list and we chop away to the point where there’s nothing left but a stump of this once luscious plant.
And after the first time I did that at our church, Dave and I had talked together and there’s nobody left in this thousand seat auditorium, but this couple that was probably in their eighties. And I walked up and I said, are you guys okay? Because the man, he has his head down and he’s just tears, just plopping to the floor. And she said, like, I don’t know what’s happening. And she said, when you cut that plant up,
Juli
Yeah.
Ann (28:46.658)
He put his head down and he’s been crying the entire time since you cut that plant. I said, are you okay? And this older gentleman, all gray, he points to the stump on the stage and he says, I am that stump of a man. And she turned to me and she said, ‘I had no idea’. And I’ve had grown men tell me like I’ve never been able to verbalize what I feel.
And I never tell my wife, but I feel like I’m that stump that’s always trying to be fixed and pruned and chopped. And that’s what I’m saying. I think we as women don’t realize the power of our words and how they need it from us more than anybody else. And so I had a friend, my best friend who really struggled with words. Like I can’t say words. Like I’m not good at that. I said, well, maybe you could text him.
Ann
And she was complaining every day, he’s never home, he travels every week. He never makes it to the kids soccer games. And again, just like what we’ve been talking, she got into that negative pathway. And this is one of the coolest things I’ve heard. said, Ann, I decided that I was going to do what you said, see the positive. And so I would start at a journal. And she said, all I did was start writing the good. It’s what you did, Juli, start writing it down. And she said there were simple things at first, like thanks for putting up the Christmas lights outside.
In Michigan, it’s always cold. know you hate it, but you do it because you love us and it makes us feel incredibly loved. Thank you. Hey, thanks. Another little quick entry. Thanks for getting to the soccer game. She said, like, I know it was hard. You had a busy day at work, busy week, but you made it. And whenever you walk in a room or on a field, the girls just light up. You make such a difference for us. So she gives that to him. She wrote like a three, maybe little things, little inserts, few times a week, three a week. She gave it to him for his birthday. She did it for a year. He sat in the chair, this incredibly successful, great man, but struggling as a husband. And he cried the entire time. And this is Dave’s best friend. And I said, Rob, why did you cry? And he said, because Ann, I feel like I’m constantly failing. I feel like I’m not a good dad. I’m not a good husband.
Ann (31:10.498)
I’m failing at everything around our home. And this is the first time I have hope that I can become the man that she wrote in this book. And it motivates me to want to be better. I’m like, That’s our power as wives.
Juli
Wow.
Juli (31:33.068)
Hey friend, it’s Juli and I’m just jumping in here for a quick minute to let you know that registration for online book studies closes this Friday, September 12th. So I want to encourage you to grab your spot now in one of our groups for men, for women, or for couples. We’ve got groups going through my new book, Surrendered Sexuality. We’ve got God’s Sex and Your Marriage, Finding the Hero in Your Husband, Rethinking Sexuality, Hope for My Hurting Heart by Linda Dillow, and Beyond the Battle by Noah Filipiak. In these studies, you’ll take part in a weekly Zoom meeting and online discussions and a Q&A with me. So again, registration is closing fast. It’s this Friday, September 12th. So head to Authenticintimacy.com/online-book-studies and grab your spot today.
Juli
I want to know what did you say to that 80 year old woman? What would that feel like to be towards the end of life and marriage and to have the awareness that your husband feels so cut down and that that was you doing it? I can’t imagine the weight of that.
Ann
Me too. And I think about that, that could have been Dave and I, and I had no idea. And what I said to her was, how sweet that God let you see it now, because it’s never too late to speak life into him. And it’s hard. Like I have another friend who’s in her seventies and she said, Ann, I’m trying to change this. It is really hard to get these old habits out of my tongue in Romans 12 too.
Ann (33:11.766)
It says, don’t be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of our minds. God can do it and it’s never too late to begin. And we can do this with our kids, especially teenagers. It’s really easy to only see and say the negative and they need to hear our positive too.
Juli
Yeah. You mentioned Romans 12, 1 and 2. We live in a culture that is particularly critical of men. It’s so in the water that we don’t even know it’s there. You know, like they’re the butt of every joke. And sometimes I think if we reverse that and men were talking openly, this critically about women, we would never put up with it.
Ann
Ever.
Juli (33:58.516)
Yeah, but it just kind of became a thing. So it’s not just like fighting our old habits, it’s also fighting kind of the streams of culture that make this very acceptable and kind of not cool to praise your husband or to encourage him. I want to also mention one other, I think very important struggle that women have are fear that they have about doing this. In every marriage, there are things that need to be confronted, sometimes more serious things than others, but there are issues like a guy who is passive and won’t work, or a guy who’s a workaholic and isn’t home, or is always on his phone, or gaming, or swears, or you know, like there’s real things that need to be addressed. And so the question becomes like, if I’m only focused on the positive, then I’m not addressing the problem. How do you help women resolve that?
Ann
You’ll probably have some really good answers to this too, Juli. But one of the things I started doing was I started asking God these questions. Like I continually saw the negative even after I was working on this. And so I got into the habit of asking God, should I say anything? Before I’d never asked that question, I would just say it, especially for verbal processors. You think it, it comes out of your mouth. And so just taking the time and… maybe there’s an issue that’s been coming up a lot and it’s a legitimate concern that shouldn’t be overlooked, as you said. And so I would take time to pray about it. Before I would just confront it in an angry kind of way and your husband’s probably so used to that he doesn’t even hear it anymore. It becomes a cycle. I would take a few days to really pray, Lord, should I say anything? And here’s the next question, how should I say it and when should I say it?
And we can become masters of communication of what it makes you feel. I mean, a simple, this is a really simple thing. It’s not really getting into the harder issues, but I remember Dave came home after a super busy Sunday. He had preached three times. He’d been on the lion’s sideline. He had done the chapel the night before. It’s just a grueling weekend. And when he got into bed, he said, man, I feel like I’ve been getting all these critiques on my sermons lately.
Ann (36:15.15)
And one of the things that had been going in on my head, this is terrible, but he’s a pastor and I was thinking, man, you should be in the word more. And when he said that, I’ve been getting critiques. What I thought was if you’d be studying the scriptures more, I think that your sermons would be way better.
Juli
Because you’re helpful, right?
Ann
I’m helping him. I asked God, God, should I say it? No. Lord, should I say anything? And this is the thought that popped into my head. And I said to him, man, it must be really hard. And what a weighty thing for you to carry. You have thousands of people depending on your walk with God. I can’t imagine the weight that you carry every single day. And all of a sudden he’s pulls me over and he whispers in my ear, “you are my life”.
Ann (37:04.718)
What if I would have said, if he’d just study the word more. But I remember like we’ve done ministry with the Detroit Lions football team, Dave was his chaplain. I worked with the wives for 35 years. One of the big complaints was like, he does nothing. When he comes home, he puts his headset on and he’s online playing video games the entire night. And they say like, I’ve tried everything. I’ve gotten lingerie and stood in front of the TV and they’re like, get out of the way. And so as you said, Juli, like, how do you address that? I think that you pray about it. You get some friends that are praying about it. Maybe you fast about it. And then you think, Lord, how should I say this? How can I say it in a way that he’ll hear me? If you just say the same thing that you’ve always said, they’re just gonna, but I think to think, how can I say it? But then I’m going to ask you, Juli, cause I think you’ll have a better answer than I will. How do you get not get resentful when they don’t receive it or change right away?
Juli
Wow, boy, that’s a tough one. Yeah I’m going to process what you already said, because it was so good. And I think another piece of that is you have to earn the trust to say hard things. You know, if I’m in a state of my marriage where I haven’t been speaking life into my husband and I’ve been letting resentment, frustration creep out of my pores and my non-verbals too, not just what I say, but my attitude, my affection towards him or lack thereof.
Ann
Helen Fisher calls it your way of being. You communicate more through your way of being than any words.
Juli
Yeah, like do I light up when I see him every day? Or is it like, hey, you know, like all of that, I feel like is building a bridge or like another metaphor is like putting deposits in an emotional bank. Like where it’s like, he knows I love him. He knows I appreciate him. He knows I’m seeing the good in him. Then when it’s time to have a hard conversation, it’s been prayed through. It has weight to it because I don’t do this often.
Juli (39:19.042)
I don’t have a critical spirit and I say it once we have a heart conversation and talk about it one time. And then I think giving him space to respond a lot of times, particularly when we have conversations, it’s not the time to resolve it. But I know I feel that way. If Mike brings something up to me too, if we try to resolve it right there, I’m going to get defensive. I’m not going to understand what he says. Like we’ve learned over the years, we need time to just go and process it and pray about it, talk to a friend or mentor about it and then come back. And so I think when he doesn’t respond the way I hoped he would, some of it is giving time. And again, when you’ve been married for a while, you see that sometimes change happens six months later and that’s okay.
Ann
I love that and I agree with it. I look at Dave and I, we’ve been married 45 years. And honestly, I want a change to happen right away. And it doesn’t always happen. It most often doesn’t happen like that. I think especially if you feel like you’re in a time where, especially when your kids are little and you’re so taxed, you’re tired, you’re stressed, we say things we shouldn’t say. And I think to give grace, to seek Jesus, you’re not gonna be able to change them. Can I just tell you that? Like you can’t change them alone. That’s not even our job. But you can encourage them, see good things. And I love the deposits, cause Dave would say that. He would say my words of pointing things out that maybe he could be better at doing or, you know, hard things. He’s like, I want those and I need them. But when all I hear is the hard, I ignore them. But when Ann can give these deposits of life words. I know she loves me. I know she thinks I’m good at certain things. And then if she comes in with a hard truth, I’m way more willing to hear it. But he’s also like, but give me a little grace, Ann. I’m like, it might not change overnight. And me neither. It took me probably five years to really get a hold of this whole topic of my words and thoughts.
Juli (41:30.486)
Yeah. And boy, another piece of this, and this is something that I think you’re going to resonate because you’ve got the performance mindset too. A lot of the things that I was frustrated at were because I have a high standard for myself and maybe what other people think of me. And when you get married now, your husband represents you. And so a lot of these issues were not necessarily things that I had a right to expect to change. more like, you have to become like me. You have to value the same things I do. You have to behave like I would behave because my identity is rooted in that. Sometimes the fact that our husbands won’t change actually is God’s opportunity to do a deeper work on us. Like, why does that bother me so much?
Ann
That’s such a good question. Why does that bother me so much? Yeah.
Juli
And is it like, that’s where you get outside counsel and say, is this something that is really critical that we need to go see a counselor about and we need to address? Or is it something that I’m just really bothered that he’s late all the time or, you know, he swears or, you know, like he doesn’t discipline the kids the way I think he should. Like, what is that about me first? And you know, what do I need to resolve before the Lord so that I stop feeling like I’ve got to fix my husband to be okay?
Ann (43:02.37)
I get into that in the book, Juli, of, I call it anchors, how there’s anchors of things that pull us down from our past. And sometimes you need to pull the anchor up to see what that’s connected to. And for mine, it was performance. It was also being the youngest of four. My parents were super busy with all of us and I was the last thought, you know, I just wasn’t a priority. And so I think part of that, one of those anchors is I thought, well, will meet those needs.
He’ll be there for me when my parents weren’t. He’ll make me happy and notice me and see me and cheer for me. And he wasn’t because Dave had his own things that he, he was trying to conquer the world out there because of his two alcoholic parents. And part of it is just like, why is it that I’m wanting him to constantly be there for me, which he should in a way, but I am just grinding on that thought. I think to ask the Lord like Lord, what is it that happened that’s making me want Dave to meet all of those needs instead of you?
Juli
And that’s why this is a journey in. Like that’s why, you know, for some women right now, it’s like, yeah, like I needed that reminder. I’m in the thick of that journey. And for some women, it’s like, I’ve never heard this before. I’ve got to really think about it. And we’re never done with that journey. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I have heard a rumor that Dave is hovering around.
Ann (44:34.658)
He already came in one time. He’s like, are you ready yet?
Juli
Does he have anything he wants to add to this conversation?
Ann
I know he will. Let me call him.
Juli
Alright, should we pull him in?
Ann
We’re ready Dave.
Dave (44:50.83)
There you go. Is this going to be edited right in or what are you doing?
Juli
Yeah, yeah, we just said that you’re going to be joining us.
Dave
Oh okay. I have no idea what you said.
Juli
We’ve been talking all about you, like…
Dave
I bet. You’ve been nice?
Juli (45:09.518)
She’s always nice. She told the story about the boo. Yeah, that was a great story.
Dave
It wasn’t great when it happened.
Juli
You know, as she was relaying that story, I was just thinking about how many guys like relate to that. Let me ask you, do you feel like words are more powerful for guys to hear from their wives than the flip side? Like do men have power, do you think, in the words they speak over their wives?
Dave
Yeah, I think words are powerful both ways. And I only know that because, you I’ve watched how my words can hurt. Ann and my kids or anybody really. So yeah, I know words are powerful for our wives, but I also know for men, I think we often put up a facade of strength, security, like we have it together. And so I think sometimes it seems to our wives or to other people, we don’t need those words. We’re good. And the opposite I think is true. I think, I think we men are little boys who are pretty insecure and are, you know, waving and saying, ‘Hey mom, you see what I did?’ I think that never goes away. So I think that little boy is still in there. And so we’re longing for our wife to see us and to say good things to us. So obviously that boo story.
Dave (46:40.878)
I had never said it like that. I remember when I said it, you know, I was like, oh, that’s exactly how it feels. I’ve never articulated it. Of course I never said it to Ann. And so I’m it to all these other women and she hears it right there. But I remember thinking, that’s what it feels like. She’s never literally booed me, but I feel like I’m disappointing her and out there and ministry and other places, I’m not disappointing them. They think I’m good.
And they were saying that as well, whether they were lying or not, it was like, you’re good. You did a good job. And I come home and I didn’t feel that. So I think men need positive words, but women do as well. But I think women, if you don’t understand that your man is very insecure and he needs, he’s longing for you to say you’re a good man.
Ann
Juli, here’s a prime example of this. Dave played senior softball today.
Dave
Did you have to bring that up?
Ann
He played senior softball.
Dave
The emphasis on “senior”.
Dave (47:39.99)
I mean, it’s pathetic.
Ann
No, no, no, no, let me finish. But so he played senior softball and…
Dave
I don’t even know what you’re going to say…
Ann
… he missed this big meeting the other day because he had to go the softball game. In my head, I’m like, senior softball, seriously? And so today he said something about he had a double and a triple. He didn’t even say it to brag. And I didn’t want to say this, Juli. I just want you know, I didn’t want to say it. Sorry if this hurts your feelings I’m kind of letting it. But I said, “You got a double and a triple. Wow.”
Dave
She did.
Ann
“That’s amazing. And I didn’t want to say it because I think it’s the dumbest thing.”
Juli
Why didn’t you want to say it?
Dave
Because it’s senior softball.
Ann
No, because he could be doing so many other things. This is what we can think of as wives. There’d be so many other things that you could be doing instead of that. But now, over the years, I know like this brings him life. He is really good. Like he’s really good. But there’s that sinful part of me that I don’t want to tell him about. Because I think it’s a dumb priority. He now knows that and I wouldn’t have said it like that if I had… but we still walk into that, we still applaud them, because we all need it.
Juli (48:46.722)
I think right there, you know, like we can take this conversation and use it to manipulate. Like I’m going to praise the things that I want my husband to do because it’s like giving him the treat, you know, let’s say behavior modification.
Dave
Here we wag our little tail, yeah.
Juli
Yeah. So, I mean, how do you make that shift where you’re like, I’m going to encourage him no matter what, even if he’s doing things that I don’t think are super valuable.
Ann
Because I know it’s the right thing to do and I know it’ll make him happy. I know that it will make him happy and did it make you happy?
Dave
Yeah, I did. It’s like nobody else cares that I got a double or triple, but she does.
Juli
Let me just say I’m super impressed that you got a double and triple.
Ann (49:34.478)
Right? He’s such a good athlete.
Dave
I was out of breath when I got the third.
Ann
I wouldn’t have told him that on the day because I thought I don’t want him to do that. I want him to be home.
Dave
But at the same time, and maybe you guys talked about this, you know, I need her and every husband man needs his wife to say the hard stuff. if this is ridiculous that I’m playing this stupid game at this age when I have family responsibilities or other things, she needs to be able to say that, I need to hear that as well.
Ann
And I did say that back when our kids were little. I remember saying, like, hon, like for you to be on the softball field three days out of the week and I’m dragging the kids there.
Dave
Yeah.
Ann
I just, I’m not sure now is the great time to do that, but now it is. Now it is. Go ahead. And you listened to me and you quit.
Dave
I did quit when she said that. I quit.
Juli
Dave, we talked about you when you weren’t here a little bit about how great you are at giving words to things that men often feel, but they don’t know how to say. In your experience, how do men show their insecurity in a way that they’re feeling like they’re being booed, but they don’t have the words to say that? Like, what would we as wives be looking for as kind of an indicator that, boy, our husbands don’t feel like we’re speaking life to them?
Dave
A couple of things come to mind. The first one is anger or I don’t know the word ‘snippy’, you know, just being short and snappy when you’re not sure why. I mean, or even a level of anger that’s higher than maybe the situation you’d step back objectively and go, yeah, I can see where you’re mad, but you’re, you’re pretty hot right now. I think that is an indicator that I’m not feeling respected or loved or seen or affirmed. But I did these two the most. Anger that was out of control. And then number two, not hitting or cursing, but just like a level of frustration that was higher than it should have been. And the other was, and that’s probably why I said it on the stage instead of, Ann, I just withdrew. I sort of pushed it down and just thought, this is my life. This is what it’s like to be a husband.
Dave (51:51.66)
I’m just gonna disappoint her. And I found that to be many of my friends’ experience as well. Maybe you told that story.
Ann
I didn’t say about your friends. I said you said it.
Dave
Yeah, I just, when I asked my four or five guys in my small group, I asked them two questions on trip one time. Do you feel like your wife loves you? And the answer was immediately yes. Do you feel like your wife likes you? The answer was immediately no.
And you know, every one of these guys are like, I know you Wilson, you’re up to something. Why are you asking that? And I’m like, why is that a common experience for us as men? So the boo thing was being felt in a lot of places. And I think we, at the end of the day, really do feel like we’ve disappointed our wife. You know, one of the talks I’m doing around the country to men is how to become the man your wife thought she married. That’s my title. And then, you know, come to this thing and go, my wife wants me to be the guy she thought I was, but I am not. What is that guy? How do I, you know, romantic and see her and be there? And I think we get lazy. I think we get focused on our job. And some of that is not her fault. Some of it is. Some of it’s I ran away because there I felt like they thought I was good, but I think we get lazy. And so I’m trying to challenge myself as well as other husbands to say, step it up, man.
Be the guy you were when you charmed her and won her and wooed her. That shouldn’t go away just because you’ve got kids and you’re getting older. It’s like, I know it’s harder now, but man, that’s the man she thought she married. You can still be that guy. And we do that, man. It’s easy to cheer that guy.
Ann
But you’re saying though too, that when men hear words of encouragement, like, hey, you’re great at this, it gives them energy.
Dave
Completely. And I’m sure you guys talked about that. Cause that’s what she does now. She is a phenomenal cheerleader for me. It’s ridiculous. She believes in me. She loves me. She affirms me. And again, I’m not saying she doesn’t speak hard things. She says the hard things I need to hear, but man, every single day I’m almost like, I’m not that good. Oh yes you are. You’re an amazing husband. And I’m like, okay, thank you. But it does, I mean, every guy is motivated by that.
Dave (54:08.718)
And I know you think you’re motivating by saying, come on, man, step up. You’re not doing this well. You’re not doing that well. Your guy’s going to step up. And some guys may be respond to that. You would know better than anybody, Juli, because this is what the world you work in. I think it’s probably less than 1%. I think 99% of us, when you say you’re good, I believe in you. I trust you. You can do this. I’ve seen what you’ve got in there. We jump, you know, and we run faster than we’ve ever run. It’s like, wow, she’s my partner.
She sees all the bad, but she still believes in me. I’m gonna be the man she says I am. She says I’m better than I even am and I’m gonna jump higher to be that man.
Ann
It really does make you see that Proverbs 18:21 that says the power of life and death is in the tongue. It’s true.
Dave
You know, you wrote the book, Finding the Hero in Your Husband and that’s it. When you find the hero and it may be tucked way in there, but when you pull that guy out. You know, we interviewed Matt Chandler on Family Life Today and he said, when you put a crown on a man, he becomes a king. And I thought that was a pretty good way to say it. It’s like, and again, you know, some wives are like, my man is not a good man. This would be lying to put a crown on him. And I get it. That man needs to be, you need to get help. If there’s abuse or, you know, we’re not saying speak life to that guy. But if you’ve got a good-willed man who’s just sort of missing it and clueless like I am, you can bring the greatness out of him when you find the hero in him. We’re preaching your book.
Ann
Yeah, we are.
Juli
We’re preaching the scripture together, but I think somewhere in that middle ground is shame. You know, like there’s the man that just needs encouragement. There’s a man that is in a really, really dark place and needs serious help. And sort of the bridge between those two places is shame, kind of a shame script. And I know that there’s some wipes who feel like this is an endless pit.
Juli (56:10.976)
Like the shame goes so deep that I feel like I’m throwing a pebble in the ocean. It’s not going to make a difference. Can you talk about that? Like the impact of shame on men and what a wife can do to help really reverse that shame?
Dave
Yeah, I mean I carried that for a long time and didn’t even know it. And the biggest help for me was going to a counselor, sitting down and digging into the family of origin brokenness that I brought in: two alcoholic parents, abuse in my home, divorced when I was seven, my dad bringing girlfriends into our house. So I was a little boy and then I’m a son of a single mom with a little brother who dies of leukemia all in that year. And again, that trauma, any counselor would go, dude, you gotta look at this. Ann and I get married and maybe you guys talked about this, but our thought was we’re new in Christ, the old is gone, thinking that is true. We are new in Christ, but we had no understanding that you’re bringing this baggage with you into this marriage. And so I brought a lot of shame and a lot of, not good enough. My dad didn’t think I was good enough to stay around. So I’m an achiever. God’s gifted me in a couple of ways. So I’m using those gifts to get people to say I’m great. And a lot of that was a way for man because out there they’re saying I’m great and here she’s saying I’m not.
I again ran away and I think, man, every guy and woman has to do the work of saying, is there deep shame in my life? Maybe it’s not even deep, but is there shame that I’m carrying around that I can’t even see? Have a trained Christian man or woman who can come beside you and say, let’s look here. Let’s bring Jesus into that part of your story.
Ann
I think too, in the beginning of our marriage, Dave had a porn problem. I don’t think until I forgave him for that, I don’t think I could have spoken life to him.
Juli (58:13.677)
Hmm.
Ann
Because I mean, a lot of Dave’s shame too, I mean, it was all deeper. And then you add a porn problem in there, that’s huge shame. And I’m condemning and angry and feeling so insecure myself. And so you just see the enemy’s strategy in that. I’m mad at him because he’s in a way that feels unfaithful to me. And so I can’t forgive him. I’m not gonna speak words of life to him because he doesn’t deserve it.
Ann
And so you can get on this cycle of this, it’s a shame cycle, I feel like. And until we get off the cycle, and I needed to forgive Dave, and I did, it took me a while to do that. really, and I feel like Juli, there’s no better resource than you guys. What you’re doing is setting people free. And so I think as we talk about these words of life to maybe even ask God, are there areas that I haven’t forgiven my spouse? Maybe he’s been unfaithful and we’re working on it, maybe it was a while ago, but maybe God’s like, I want you to forgive him because I want to set you free in order to love and encourage and be the wife that I’ve called you to be and be the woman that I’ve called you to be.
Juli
Ann, was Dave, was he off porn before you forgave him? I think that’s key for a lot of marriages. Like, I’m not gonna forgive till he stops. Like, can you forgive and speak life even if it’s an ongoing struggle?
Ann (59:47.874)
That’s a good question. It was a long time ago for us, like probably 30 years ago.
Dave
I mean, I would say yes, she did because the joke, wasn’t a joke, but you know, at the very first time I ever fell, this was before digital world. You know, I said, this will never happen again. And then it did.
Ann
Now I’m like, now you’re lying too. So not only are you, but now you’re lying.
Dave
And then we got to the point where I was like, you know what? I shouldn’t say that. I can’t be perfect. I do not want this ever happen again. But she forgave me before I ever got completely clean because it did happen, you know, a month later, three months later.
Ann
It was eating at me. It was like a poison in my soul. And I think that is what happens when you don’t forgive. And it’s a conditional forgiveness. Yeah. I’ll forgive you when is very conditional and it’s not the gospel, but it’s still super, super hard.
Juli
Well, I am so grateful for you two. I mean, we’re friends. feel like every time we get together, we could just talk for 10 hours. So I’m thankful that we recorded some of what we like to talk about. you know, when I think about the scripture telling older women to teach younger women how to love their husbands and the same for older men, like just what a valuable gift you two are to the family of God, to couples who are navigating this because you’re just so real, but you both are so grounded in the Lord. And so just thank you for the wisdom that you’ve shared today in this book and just in your ministry.
Dave
Well, we thank you as well.
Ann
Juli, I have you, I shouldn’t, but I kind of have you on a pedestal.
Juli (01:01:29.302)
No, you know me too well to do that.
Dave
I wish we lived in Cleveland.
Ann
It’s a friend pedestal. I love you and I love how you’re impacting and helping so many people. We really love you guys.
Dave
We’ll do anything with you guys.
Juli (01:01:47.79)
Alright friends, well I told you that was going to be a great conversation and lots of fun and I’m so grateful for Ann’s transparency along with her wisdom. I encourage you to pick up a copy of Ann’s book, “How to Speak Life to Your Husband When All You Want to Do is Yell at Him”. It really is a great read and like I said earlier, it is convicting, it’s practical and we’re going to put a link to that in our show notes. Boy, this is a great book go through with a group of friends who struggle with keeping positive perspective on marriage and a positive attitude towards your husband. It’ll really challenge and encourage you as well. Be sure to stop by Authenticintimacy.com and grab your spot in one of our fall online book studies before they are gone. Registration closes September 12th, so you don’t want to miss that. Thanks for listening and I look forward to having coffee with you next time on Java with Juli.